August 2010 newsletter from
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/mv/index.php?user=guestuser&tp=921Rn3F7LcY4g'font-size:12px; width:700px; margin-left: 0px; '> Killary Fjord Panorama From Devilsmother

Walkers Association of Ireland
and other groups.
The Walkers Association Challenge Walks Calendar
This is a calendar of challenge walks such as the Mourne Sevens, 7th August; the Marathon Walk Western Way, 14th August and the Burren Walks 28th August. Check out the 17 or so club organised events. While they are all challenges, some such as the Maamturks or the Mourne's Seven Sevens are much harder than others such as the Galtees or the Burren Walk.
There's also a list of some 14 commercial and charity events which have a challenge element about them.
Advance notice: Moonlight Challenge for Mountain Rescue! - Saturday 20th November 2010

Challenge yourself and your team on this 26km Night Hike (16.3 miles) in aid of the Glen of Imaal Mountain Rescue Team. Your group will have to travel from Crone Wood in Glencree, following the Wicklow Way to Paddock Hill and finishing at the site of the Team's New Rescue Base.
Funds raised will go directly towards building this Base (construction has begun) and will ensure that the Team can protect, store and maintain their live-saving equipment. At present there are no indoor facilities for the Rescue Team, and Rescue vehicles and equipment are stored at members' homes. This reduces the life of all the rescue gear.
More information This is a new website with their aim encapsulated in the web address. We agree with their argument that "They cause an unjustifiable amount of damage per person, it's simply not sustainable." where they are comparing walker to biker damage. Most recreational activity in the uplands causes some damage. What's needed is to compare the benefit (to how many and what sort of benefit) to the environmental cost.

There are several other areas in Ireland where members of Mountainviews have reported problems over the last few years such as the Galtys, Silsean, Knockmealdown etc. MountainViews has been publicising the phone number to ring in connection with sightings of quad and trail bikers for some years.

But how can recreational users move things forward?
One thing that might be particularly useful is if members note on MV where bikers / quadbikers are leaving the public road. If we can get a list of places then we can then move to a stage where these places can be patrolled either formally or informally.

Another thing that is important is raising consciousness and drawing lines. The response of clubs for example can be very weak.
One time shortly after the first occasion that a visible track formed up the west side of Lug I was with a group from a club. Surveying the scene everyone piously tut-tutted about the damage as viewed from neighbouring Slievemaan. The leader then proceeded to take the group onto the Lug slope and STRAIGHT UP THE QUAD TRACK, thus further damaging the mountain. Neither he/she nor most of the others seemed to grasp the gap between saying one thing and then doing the opposite. Duh.
Let me hasten to add that all my experiences with clubs taking stands on this issue have not been bad. I can remember being with a group where we spotted bikers leaving the forest tracks to head up Corrigsleggaun. We formed a line and made them feel their behaviour is totally unwelcome. I think this is useful because it removes one form of defence offered by bikers "nobody minds us".
Putting it all together. Strictly no violence - don't provoke it either. Do what you are comfortable with. Where possible reason assertively them or if that's impossible because of noise or their speed at least make clear your opposition and get photos. They don't like photos because by and large they know that they shouldn't be there and photos could lead to identification.
Too militant? Well, what exactly has any other approach achieved in the 5 years + since we reported the trail up Lug or the damage on Silsean? Still unhappy? Well, with MV you can put your point of view in the forum.
WAI Photo Gallery - why not upload some of your pictures (Ireland or abroad) to this?

New features
Short Summaries - have a go.
We introduced the Short Summary in the last couple of months, at first restricted to a few volunteer testers. Now anyone who has at least 250 contribution points (see Community | Contributors Hall of Fame) can put in a Short Summary or edit an existing one. Have a go. We are looking for a compact piece about a summit with something on places to start, attractions, pitfalls etc. Not necessarily fully comprehensive - remember others can improve it later.
Occasional problems logging in - fixed we hope.
Some changes were made to resolve this which appear to work. Certainly we haven't had any complaints recently.
This month we have started on simplifying the web address of the website. Some areas of the website such as the newsletters are now reached by structured URLs such as which makes them easier to read and improves how search engines access the site. The site now converts accesses to (or the .eu form) to which is the address that should be used on all links to the site. For the technorati, we now know far too much about the byzantine Apache mod_rewrite than is good for our mental health.

Recent Contributions and News
Walk for members and friends - 14th August in the Mournes.

I gather a good crowd has already said they are coming to this and I hope to be there myself. All walkers welcome whether or not you are a MV member.
SCAVENGER WALK 4 Saturday 14th August 2010 - from 9.30am Trassey Track Nr Bryansford by Newcastle Co Down, Northern Ireland. Mountainviewers and others, mountain get-together. Chance to meet other mountainviewers. Viewers and absolutely everyone else welcome. Grade 2 hillwalk including 2X700ms tops in the Eastern Mournes, Co Down. Format - Meet, walk, pub, eat. Sunday more walks TBD on S ... Click here
Wonderful Windmills ...
jackill bursts into the Sound of Music about windmills -- they can be inspiring all right, but view the next item which may allow you to form a balanced impression - HINT, the brakes failed.
But first Julie Andrews ...
jackill on Cummeenboy: Did I mention its wet?
Theres a lot to be said for windmills. Clean, green energy machines harvesting power from boggy hills for the next quarter century, not to mention nice gravel roads. Buried to my bogged knees on Esknabrock and then powerhosed clean on Knockbwee, I arrived at W10616 73267, hopped a gate and walked to windmill 3 at W11317 73889 on a very lovely gravel road. A 10 minute swim brought me to the ... Click here
... Why you shouldn't stand under a windmill that's sickly

View Here. No amount of preachy warnings about windmills will ever compare to this video.
Geolives - members report issues.
There's been a number of complaints about Geolives, the online mapping service advertised to replace TrailMaster.
Originally in Ireland there were only 1:50000 paper maps (except for a scattering of 1:25000) however in response to developments elsewhere OSi started to produce TrailMaster (with a Belgian partner), a DVD distributed product for some 4 areas of the Republic from 2005. Some of you may remember that MV contributed data towards that project and in return got access to the "webmap" used on the summit information pages.

TrailMaster had a chequered career. It was at first rather expensive and the software was extremely clunky. The underlying data was good though the rendering of fine detail (contour lines for example) was a bit rough. The software went through numerous revisions though in my opinion some of the speed and UI (User Interface) issues were never cured. One huge difficulty has been the extremely restrictive DRM (Digital Rights Management) associated with the product. This ties an installation down to a specific motherboard. Having changed my PC and then unfortunately had two motherboard failures I have found that the procedure to allow me to register to use my software so irritating that I haven't got around to it.
As it happens I actually know quite a bit about online activation systems and currently work on two of them at my day job in a software company. Software and data rights can be protected without the sort of hassle involved with TrailMaster.
The OSi had their own difficulties with the TrailMaster product approach as evidenced by a recent comment from Hugh Mangan
"The decision to remove Trail Master from the market was principally driven by finances and resources within OSi. The Trail Master DVD's quickly became out of date (especially with the introduction of Vista), and so the move to a partner led on-line distribution model made more strategic sense. It is unlikely that OSi will every release that sort of product again, instead opting to use 3rd party organisations, who should be better able to address the need in the market."

The OSi made an arrangement with Geolives - a new online system for recreational mapping in place in a number of European countries. This deal gave existing TrailMaster customers some tiles (map parts) from Geolives.
Members of MV may recall that through the WAI (Walkers Association of Ireland) a consultation was arranged to get user responses to the transition to Geolives.

A number of our members however have expressed strong reservations about Geolives. Personally I had similar problems in that I simply couldn't get their website to work.

So after six years the situation for many people is that TrailMaster doesn't work and was never better than middling, Geolives doesn't work and we are almost back to where we were. Personally I find myself using a mixture of GPSU (a cheap 2D GPS and mapping system a bit similar to Gartrip), Google Earth which is steadily improving - in some cases its photo data has higher resolution than OSi orthophotos - and OSM (Open Street Map). All of these have their qualities but really a proper recreational map system is still lacking.
What's the short term answer? Well in fairness to the OSi they aren't locked in to any given partner. As we mentioned before another company Mapyx are distributing a somewhat similar product. In the April 2010 issue we mentioned a special offer (15%) they had for MountainViews members.

So would some members like to try the Mapyx range and review them for us?

Longer term? Ireland is a smaller country, crucially with a lower population density than most in Europe. Our nearest European neighbours both have national 1:25000 coverage, made possible presumably by bigger buying pools. It seems to me that further cooperation between the official mapping agencies (OSi and L&PS), less official but still potent forces such as OSM, miscellaneous data suppliers and all the stakeholders from recreational to governmental could bring about a better situation for everyone in the island of Ireland.
In the consultation that WAI organised (May 2009) with OSi the OSi said that they were interested in longer term discussion. The consultation at that point was very much a discussion of proposed changes (ITM, new map layout) rather than a discussion of stakeholder requirements or more radical cooperation methods. Now that the current revision of the OSi 1:50000 maps are well underway (the first nine OS revised maps are out) this would be a good time to think longer term about the next revision free from an immediate pressure.
jackill on djouces dispair
Ah yes, Geolives, easily the most complicated , user unfriendly site ever concieved. After going through all the steps you mentioned, which took ages due to poor instructions by both OSI and Geolives, I have succeeded in downloading some maptiles.Sometimes indeed there was a wait but never more than a few hours(usually much less) for the download link to appear in my inbox. I would try downloa ... Click here
Dogs, cows and when to hoof it.
An explanation by our resident expert.
Last month there were a number of cases of cow attack reported. This has only happened to me once and, yes, it was only funny in the pub afterwards.
jackill on Drop the Dog and Moove away quick.
No stranger to the dogs debate and also 50% beef farmer, I'll try to explain. Beef cattle (castrated males) are generally very docile and afraid of dogs but can be curious of people/things that cross their path. They can show this curiosity by approaching you, sniffing about you, licking you even but they will generally scatter if you shout/wave your hands etc. Cows on the other hand can be co ... Click here
Cattle attack photo!

csd on Mount Oriel: Beware of the livestock!
Following in wicklore's footsteps, I accessed Mount Oriel from the same service track mentioned in his comment. Note that I wouldn't take a normal family car up this track, as some of the potholes are now quite deep and the track is becoming quite eroded in places. There isn't really anywhere to park on the main road, so perhaps a better idea might be to park in Collon and walk up from there to ma ... Click here
Wolves, exterminations and even Oliver Cromwell
This fascinating contribution on names will tell you much.
wicklore on Wolftrap Mountain: The extermination of wolves
The history of where Wolftrap Mountain got its curious name is not easily found. Wolves had flourished in Ireland for thousands of years, and indeed ringforts and other defensive settlements were built between 1000 BC to AD 1000 partly to protect livestock from these creatures. The earliest evidence of wolves in Ireland comes from bones found in Cork that are 34,000 years old. It is known that Ir ... Click here
North end of the Antrim Hills has interest.
Veteran contributor explored this place earlier this year (a good bit earlier, judging by the snow) and describes one of the summits.
gerrym on Crockaneel: What a Crock!
The obvious starting point is the plentiful carpark at the start of the forest drive through Ballypatrick Forest. Walk back onto the A2, turning left and crossing Bushburn and Alteela bridges, before taking a forest track uphill on the right.
The recent heavy dump of snow had left 3-4" of wet stuff which was well trodden through the forest. Much slipping and sliding brought a crossroads i ... Click here
"Swirly rocks" - spiral patterns on rocks.
A short discussion broke out during the month on some spiral patterns on this modest but well positioned hill in east Wicklow. I must have a look next time I am up there though I am mindful of the possibility of some modern faking. Still the rock there is quartzite which is always hard to cut.
I see this discussion has tempted two members to contribute - welcome fionn_rocks and the soothing Savlon.
Savlon on Little Sugar Loaf: Spiral Hunting
Fionn_rocks- I went up this mountain today to have a look for the possible spirals. Found them quite easily. They are typical in design but I can't be certain they are not more modern. My son also found another possible candidate. I can let you know the location if you wish. Thanks a mil to Dessie. The hill was a lovely walk- beautiful heather and gorse- but very windswept on the eastern side-the ... Click here
A quotation from Sir Hugh Munro
For the summiteers amongst us, I came upon this recently:
"The decision as to what are to be considered distinct and separate mountains, and what may be counted as "tops," although arrived at after careful consideration, cannot be finally insisted on."
H.T. Munro, 1891

So, Sir Hugh accknowledged the difficulties of classifying summits. The modern approach has been to use prominence as a deciding factor, but even that throws up some questionable decisions.
Literary Analysis of MountainViews contributions
When future digital archaeologists reconstruct this website in the year 2300 they may be puzzled by the differences between and the origins of the styles employed.
Perhaps they will put their AI on to untangling the origins of the various memes that appear in contributions - something that is beyond us, I fear.
Be that as it may, it is now possible to analyse text for style and compare it to various literary figures at the site below.

Applying this resource to some contributions in MV gives the following
weedavie James Joyce.
Bleck Cra : Vladimir Nabokov
CaptainVertigo : Edgar Allan Poe
mrcritchly : Robert Louis Stevenson

I'm not making these up! (Although I would have suspicions about the website that does this.)
When I tried various of my own entries they were all pronounced to be in the style of a number of science fiction writers. Not surprising since I read a lot of speculative fiction - or is that just accidental wish-fulfillment?

Try it yourself here.
Sorry if I didn't mention what you posted .. there's a list of all contributors for the month later.

Site notes If you can set-up your email to get web-format ("html format"), you should be able to get more out of this newsletter. Previous Newsletters
GPS Notes. March 2010. The latest GPS map from MV member pazapas, with more uptodate info including lakes, rivers, roads, antiquities, 150m list from this site and urban areas.
Pazapas on GPS map v1.95 released
Emerald Island GPS map v1.95 is available. This version introduces a new rendering and an easier way to manage layers in MapSource. You will see many trails in Wicklow, Carrauntohill and Mourne Mountains. Coniferous forests are now displayed in a different manner. Enjoy your walks ! The link : Click here

This month.
We welcome the following new members who enrolled this month. abi, aDrift, afcwill, alanruth, albertwk, amfitzpa, andren64, andrewsolan, ardilaun2010, bagsmcg, baltrumer, bannside05, barfly1, BashF, baz, beano, bmac, bmcd, bobbi, BobCreggan, borodescud, bos87irl, bsnowdon, btmaloney, Busywalker, caitriona94, canoeondown, capetrekker, capri, Carlito, carpediem2010, Carrowniskey, Cemalina2010, cescmtb, charliemoonhead, charliescullion, chayes, chrizoneill, cianc, ClaireMc1, Clarkin, coconnell, cocotte, coler, colettejade, conway, coolagad, corktony, Daibheid, danfajones, dannihitch, dardevle, darren8006, deanob, debjob, decarey, Deise, demiodame, denisca, dermot_lynch, dinkle, dinnyhurley, Djac05, docunut, dolandee, Don-Baldwin, donalkeenan, donmadigan, donobriain, doodene, dotorg, Dowler, doylers, draq, ducatel, duggan, dukeruane, dulaczka, ebarrett, edavies, egsherry, elliottg, encryptix, eoinocon, epi, eragueAttaith, ericlfc, fiachloir, FightDiary, fionadodd, fionn_rocks, fitzpaa, fulton, Funster, galuss, gamma, Germack, GerryT, gilnadowd, glendo, GlobeTrotter, gobewan, gouganebarra, grainnereid, Granty, grryos, gwyniemac, haldys471, heff, hillsarealive, hirschberg, hobbitrodh, ianbyrne, imsodave, irishhiker, Isbjoern, james1000, jamesdevine, jamesgdoherty, janetscott, Jason_Roberts, jbolton, jduggan001, jeany, jefee, jensemple, jimmaestro, jmcd22, joeoconnor72, JohanSwinkels, johniecollins, johnokeeffe, jojo, jokke, jolive, Jonathan123, JonathanP, Jose, jpmcmanus, jsmatthews20, july10, kdg, keith_flynn, kellmura, kenboy, kersten, kevin_o_m, KilcountyKing, kildara, lcmarkley, lemonmeringuepie, lesliehoward, Liam3112, limerickhiker, linus, lm, loftyn, loughie87, LovelyLady, lsweeney, m00nman, macsweec, manon, marco-polo, mariemurnane, marie_revill, martincal, martinkemp, MaxiRodi, mcbryan, mcenteem, Mel-G, melanieallard, mghalliday, mharte, Michael55, micilin, Mickb, micko, MickPenrose, micxl, midulster, mikemooney, milburlg, millar75, Milly123, milo1920, MissMax, mlheffernan, molonyp, monaleen, moored, munstermunch, NancyAdams, narahyabyrne, nbourdrez, newellg, nocter, nohamnhoj, Noiser, NormanWares, OisinG, Ol-slewfoot, OmarS, oreganps, paddyb, paddycar, PatFlanagan, pathol, patrickmullen, paulhegarty, paulooka, Pdogrady, pel-h, perce08, pfhjvb0, pf_irl, Philewis, pinemartin, pleavy, pmcb55, ps1, ps200306, ptegan, quadsofflug, radiopodarokker, raybean, rayo, rcliff, Resapo, riverdog, rjdie, rn, Robmc, rolaine, ronanf, roryjmccarthy, ross33, ruthjacksonuk, SaaX, sackofspuds, sarahduffy, saramacca, Savlon, Schack, scrum001, Seamus59, seansligo, shama, shaneog, sharkbaitrob, shlomi, simon_ed, skydreamer, Slimannys, smoran, snakeel, sofearghail, Sok, sportsik, srilanka, stacym, StephenH16, Stephen_Holman, stevemcb, Steven, sthrownthrower, stonethrower, taw, teakm2, teeny557, temple, tirowen, tomalley, tomaswalsh, TomL, tommccarthy, tommysparks, tomnipresent, TonytheNavigator, Treehugger, turloughc, usplitu, uulis, vesalman, vincemcnabb, w8ster, wilqu, wolfo, yarbola, youngwalrus, yourhcproviderrr (292)
Our contributors to all threads this month: Bleck Cra (4), Brendan777 (1), Cemalina2010 (1), Colin Murphy (1), Conor74 (2), Derry259 (1), Dessie1 (6), Djouce (1), Ed-T (1), Geo (5), Harry Goodman (7), Ol-slewfoot (1), Peter Walker (2), Risteard_Suebi (1), Savlon (1), Stephen_Holman (1), YoungJohn (2), ahendroff (6), andagda (1), brenno (2), csd (5), darrenf (1), david bourke (1), dbloke (2), exaisle (1), fionn_rocks (1), gerrym (6), Communal summary entries (34), hbowman (1), hibby (1), hillwalkerliam (2), jackill (5), jkforde (1), keith_flynn (1), maclimber (3), madfrankie (1), mcrtchly (1), micko (1), murraynolan (2), pdtempan (1), quadsofflug (1), scapania (1), simon3 (7), stevemcb (1), three5four0 (14), vanczyz (1), wicklore (16) and Contributors to GPS information this month were: csd (2), Geo (6), jackill (4), madfrankie (1), wicklore (21)

For a fuller list view Community | Recent Contributors
There were comments on the following summits Ben Bury, Benglenisky, Brandon, Bray Head, Cairngaver, Carran Hill, Carranarah, Carrauntoohil, Carrigvore, Cashel Hill, Clomantagh Hill, Cnoc na Sleá, Corn Hill, Cornasaus, Craigcannon, Croaghan Hill, Croaghmoyle, Croaghnamaddy, Crocknamoghil, Croghan Hill, Cuilcagh, Cummeenboy, Curraghchosaly Mountain, Devilsmother, Divis, Djouce, Dooish, Doughruagh, Eskaheen Mountain, Farbreiga, Glendoo Mountain, Grinlieve, Holywell Hill, Inch Top, Keelogyboy Mtn NE Top, Keelogyboy Mtn SW Top, Kesh Corran, Kings Mountain, Knockalla , Knocknacloghoge, Knocknarea, Knocknashee, Knockullane, Little Sugar Loaf, Loughaskerry, Lugnaquillia, Mouldy Hill, Mount Oriel, Mullaghanoe, Mullaghturk, Mweelrea, Nephin, Nephin Beg, Nephin Beg S Top, Seefin, Seltannasaggart, Seltannasaggart SE Slope, Slieve Carn, Slieve Carr, Slieve Foye, Slievenamon, Slievenamuck, War Hill, Wolftrap Mountain and these walks were created The Coastal Walk!
Thanks to all 823 who have ever contributed summits or routes info and forums. .

For a full list view Community | Contributors Hall of Fame

Summary. MountainViews now has 4579 comments about 923 different hills & mountains out of the total in our current full list (1054). We need more comments, better comments and more balance for every summit as our rate for "data completion" now that the 150m summits have been added is currently only around 44% There's plenty (131) of opportunities for you to be the first to comment on a summit. Listing summits in "Lists & Logs" (tick MV completion information) allows you to see what information we need to get more even coverage.

If you are contributing, please be careful to respect the interests of landowners. Suggest access routes well away from houses, gardens or that could conceivably impact farming activities. When walking, keep away from gardens or farm buildings. Use stiles or gates wherever possible. Never do anything that could allow animals to roam where the farmer did not intend.
If you hear of a problem area or route, write it up in MountainViews which does everyone a service.
Report rubbish tipping in the Dublin/ Wicklow area - ring PURE 1850 365 121
Report quads in national park area (in which they are banned). For Wicklow please phone the Duty Ranger: 087-9803899 or the office during office hours Telephone: +353-404-45800. Put these numbers in your phone, take regs etc. Let MV know of contact numbers for other areas.
If you have climbed some of the less well known places, we would appreciate a summit rating.We could use your help in making ratings for the unrated mountains which you have climbed, such as: Puffin Island, Inis Tuaisceart, Maumfin, Inis na Bró, Inch Top, Barr an Dígín, Knockaghaleague, Bunmore, Knocknascollop NW Top, Cruach Leac Chonaill and some 31 others. and also GPS readings for summits.
If we can, let's make MV have more than one route up a summit so as to reduce the tendency for paths to appear. Your grid refs in comments for different starting points show up on MountainViews maps.

This newsletter This newsletter is from Simon Stewart for MountainViews
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