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Post details Post   (Contract pics)
BleckCra
2017-09-29 18:35:45
"" from BleckCra Contract pics
Picture: (Contract pics)

One man's Merrick
Ah. Alas Simon, and as always, you have managed to talk and data yourself away from dealing with my observations and queries, none of which have ever been so complicated to warrant ... I can only call it .... such "streams of consciousness" - and such defensiveness.
My query is why you call the Merrick a Marylin when I know it as a Corbett. I am not challenging your authority and it is not a big deal. Any chance of a simple answer to a simple question?
Secondly don't blame someone else for the spelling of Kirkcudbright. Same old - the eminent source says X, therefore mv says X. You are the publisher. In law you are the principle. You have to get it right and would you not want to anyway? It's a detail - not a matter of Simon's last stand.
Wind yer neck in oul lad. It's only a bit o' banter.
simon3
2017-09-29 09:57:44
Bloop, beep, plonk.
Bleck Cra: Delighted to hear you have visited your old locality and indeed your past. And delighted to read such an eloquent posting on being temporally challenged in hillwalking. Folks we can all also learn some wisdom from BleckCra's last post about coming off a walk:

"I mean the bit when we start going home; the bracken and the brown hill cattle; the patchwork fields below, the smell of trees and a stream - and coming away from the best, the very best show on earth."

Poetic metaphor for life. We oldies have to stick together don't we?

But to the matter at hand. You have revisited our page for Merrick in the Carrick & Galloway area of Scotland. You told us in Jan 2014 you had climbed it and now you are wondering why we don't call it a Corbett. Part of your fond remembering has been wrenched from you so requiring MountainViews be 'disabused' and generally struck with the usual whip of poetic license.

Well the trouble with lists is that there can be too much of a good thing. Hill Bagging who is a fraternal website say that Merrick should be considered a "Marilyn, Hump, Simm, Corbett, Donald, Historic County Top, Current County/UA Top, Administrative County Top, Trail 100". Does that information add much to the typical user on the island of Ireland?

Not convinced? Take a look at http://www.haroldstreet.org.uk/waypoints/ which contains a list of lists. EIGHTY SIX (86) of them, with new ones being added quite often. They include the main lists of Britain and Ireland. (Even some that MountainViews popularise such as the Arderins but a huge range of British lists.) The take-home? We have to choose.

MountainViews is a website for hillwalkers on the island of Ireland. Most of our content and most of our members come from Ireland. It is natural that we concentrate on where we live and walk. However we are delighted to include a page on most summits from the neighboring island and of course we publish dozens of shared tracks from places as far flung as the Lake District, the Pyrenees, South America etc.

We promote various Irish lists of which the main ones are the Arderins, the Vandeleur-Lynams, the County Highpoints, the Local 100 etc with new ones such as the Irish Islands. It's a family of lists that people can start at any level and move to further levels as they visit more places. As for Britain we thought it appropriate to include a modest selection of mostly metric lists: the Munros, the Marilyns, the 600s and the 500s as well as an all Britain list. Anyone visiting Britain from Ireland north or south should find a summit page or perhaps a shared track for hills near where they visit.

If there really was demand for more, sure, we would consider it but generally we want to maintain a relatively small number of lists that fit together. We do make changes from time to time in our lists. Last month we slightly altered the formula for the 100 Local. Shortly we will be formally introducing the Irish Islands with a mechanism by which users can indicate separately whether they have visited the island or visited it's highpoint.

So, less whipping please. And more reflection and not just in the mirror of years gone by lyrical as that was.

**** Definition
Corbetts - Scottish hills between 2500 and 2999 feet high with a drop of at least 500 feet

**** 'Kircudbrighshire and not as MountainViews spell it' -- we are using the list and names from database of British and Irish hills. Take it up with them.
BleckCra
2017-09-28 23:13:27
"" from BleckCra Contract pics
Picture: (Contract pics)

Bloop oopy do?
Help me here, if someone will - and I can't imagine I shall wait long.
Just happened to zoom into my old manor. I find the Merrick described by mountainviews as a British Marilyn. And it seems that is what it is. YUK.
Where I come from - and it's there I come from - when you start a sentence with "when I was wee (small/young).... " the listener will understand that they are about to be disabused of some modern notion.
When I was wee, the Merrick was a Corbett.
Incidentally where it is, is in Kirkcudbrightshire and not as mountainviews spells it.
ScotJim
2017-09-28 15:35:11
"AL 2 March Stone" from ScotJim Contract pics
Picture: AL 2 March Stone (Contract pics)

MARCH STONES
Currently trying to locate a series of 8 march stones marked AL separating The Seven Shielings from Lude Estates in Perthshire Scotland. This is part of Atholl Estates just outside Pitlochry. In a document dated 1763 directly relating to the position of these march stones it refers to two hills which obviously have Irish names - Knockvalon and Knockbreakmore. Can anyone help me with an Anglicised translation of these names. Cheers Jim
BleckCra
2017-09-26 21:22:24
"" from BleckCra Contract pics
Picture: (Contract pics)

...
Today I put an old gentleman's socks on. I brushed his teeth, washed his face, combed his hair .... and I watched him in the mirror.
When I was twenty I thought it would trouble me; when I was thirty, forty; when I was fifty; and now ....? It turns out it's not that troubling.
I am troubled though that my chests have set sail for my navel. I am troubled that the skin on my arms feels like rice paper. I am troubled that I need a brown pair of specs to read and a blue pair to see the telly. I am troubled that I ask people to repeat themselves. I am troubled that my left knee sometimes goes up like a balloon - for no reason.
The desperate gravity drop off Ben Crom, Craig Meagaidh and the Aonach Eagach. The gossamer flight of bog cotton on the Annalong Buttress or behind White Coomb. The razor slice of winter sun off Carlingford, Doan, the silver Solway. The blistering howl and roar of needle hail on Slieve Commedagh and Meall nan Tarmachan. The bastard Rocky Mountain that got me eventually with a 4' rock hole and made me lame.
And I would do it again and again and again and again ....
An ingenue once asked me which part of hillwalking I liked the best.
"Going home" I said and I still wonder if she thought I meant "well thank fk that's over."
But I don't. I mean the bit when we start going home; the bracken and the brown hill cattle; the patchwork fields below, the smell of trees and a stream - and coming away from the best, the very best show on earth.
Bunsen7
2017-09-26 10:49:47
Illuminating Discovery
https://www.rte.ie/news/munster/2017/0925/907390-megalithic/
"A hillwalker in west Kerry has made a stunning discovery which connects a 4,000-year-old tomb with the equinox.

The megalithic tomb, known as the Giant’s Grave, is situated in the valley of Loch an Dúin on the eastern side of the Conor Pass.

Ancient rock art can be found within the tomb, including a cup and circle near the head of the tomb.

For the past 14 years Daithí Ó Conaill, a retired school principal, has visited the site during the winter and summer solstice hoping to make a connection between the tomb and the sun.

He has now discovered that the wedge tomb is actually aligned to the setting sun of the equinox, which last occurred on Friday 22 September."

Yet another thing to look out for if you take a walk in this area and which I bypassed on my only visit to this lake. A Hendroff suggests the view northwards from the hills above this lake is one of the finest on the peninsula - I have a fair few more hills to visit before I can attest to this but having had the privilege to take in that view I certainly agree it is worth the ramble!
BleckCra
2017-09-25 22:51:22
"" from BleckCra Contract pics
Picture: (Contract pics)

"Very like a Whale"
The temptation for me Simon, as of course you know, to be drawn into a debate with you, is virtually irresistible but fortunately only virtually.
Much in your post has little to dislike but far from all of it. If you imagine the mountain prefix Meel to have anything to do with ants or whales it is hardly surprising.
Next, it's entirely redundant if you think that mountainviews is not an authority. Everyone else does. That is a responsibility and it behoves you to get it right. Trying to get it right and your "guidelines" zzzz will not defend you.. It is disappointing that you think they will.
The great thing about getting something wrong is it gives you the opportunity to get it right. Trust me: I have spent my whole life doing it - and it is very rewarding.
You write that "Place naming in Ireland is never going to be an exact science." Well actually I disagree but if I did agree, we certainly could do better that hill of the ants/whales/pekingese.
... and your history lesson ref language. C'mon big lad.
Academic sources. No no no no. This is at the very heart of the problem. The only way as you suggest although, self-evidently very unwillingly, is on the ground local knowledge. If you, I or anyone can get a critter local to the Meels More and Beg not to choke on his scone when you tell him his hill is something to do with ants or whales and that academics can prove it, I shall eat my head with chips.
I could pick up on your point about phonetics, how the word Meel sounds - but honestly.
Lastly, should I get antsy about your comment ref flying by the seat of my pants? I shan't but I will smile though. My degree is in English and French; I have conversational Italian, a Spanish O level and wait for it . . a foinne in a Irish. I have inhabited the mountains of Highland Scotland and Ireland for 35 years.
Mountain words, language and seat of pants? Could be. Could be not.
Now just go and fix it would you ever and stop being such an unconscionable stick in the mud.
simon3
2017-09-25 10:15:20
The perpetual anti
Ah BleckCra we do miss your commentary expressed as always eloquently and amusingly. You have excelled yourself in double entendre with regards to Slieve Meelmore on this occasion. We thank you for the chuckle. (For newcomers to MV, do have a look at BleckCra's founding of the Meelmore High Club at mountainviews.ie/summit/138/ )

But the persuasiveness of the substance depends on a willingness to proceed very quickly from the particularly humorous ants to the general where MV's ".. translation of Irish hill names .. remains ridiculous".

Where has MV, a hillwalkers' website, ever said MV is ".. the authority on and source for all things mountain in Ireland ". Take a look at our various guidelines, all online. Doesn't say that.

On the other hand while not claiming to be the Authority we do try to get things right. This isn't the first occasion BleckCra picked an example to try to imply the website is ridiculous ( if memory serves me right it was in connection with some border summit near the Dublin-Belfast road - Faughil perhaps ). Some time after that we introduced the public correction system. Yep, we fully accept we haven't got the data right for many summits or other places which is why MV has the "Propose Places Database Change" button. Since it was started in Nov 2014, over 300 corrections have been proposed. Many of these are about names. Almost all corrections have been accepted with a tiny minority lacking evidence or corroboration being rejected. Given we have had 300 corrections in 3 years we are quite sure we need to make hundreds more for the over 2200 places we list.

Place naming in Ireland is never going to be an exact science. History as a colonised country and the 19th century OS approach to establishing names using an Anglicised spelling ensured that. Various efforts to correct this from the official Logainm.ie with only partial coverage to various cartographers and local historians of uncertain academic vigour are only partly successful. So what to do? MV tends towards using official sources. We are also indebted to Paul Tempan for a serious academic approach to the issue. We also do various other things: allow up to 3 names per place each identified by language, and secondly allow users to choose to what extent they want Irish or English names where either are available.

As for the ants in our pants: Here are the notes for Slieve Meelmore: "The word míol, although often used of ants and other insects, is a generic term for animals of sorts. It can be applied to beasts ranging from grasshoppers to whales, though it is usually qualified by another word in these cases. Slieve Meelmore and Slieve Meelbeg, further north in the Mournes, have a similar origin."

Correcting things

Something not correct in your view? Feel free to "Propose Places Database Change". Your proposal will be reviewed. Most will be accepted or sometimes added as an alternative.

For something like this suggested change for Slieve Meelmore that directly contradicts an existing and researched name derivation it would be a good idea to quote academic source(s) or locally knowledgeable Irish speakers (preferably more than the one that you can find that agrees with you). Not sure simply asserting however humorously that Meel or Miol phonetically sounds like Meall etc really cuts it. Upping the Ante: Less "flying by the seat of your pants" please.
liz50
2017-09-23 16:20:37
"Corranabinnia arete " from liz50 Contract pics
Picture: Corranabinnia arete (Contract pics)

Only 2 weeks to go
Mountainviews Members Meet on Saturday 7th October will be a hike around the the Corranabinnia/Glendahurk horseshoe in the Nephin Beg mountain range in Co Mayo. If you are interested in joining us and would like more details about the walk and meeting points etc contact Liz at elizabethashton2014@outlook.com
BleckCra
2017-09-22 23:50:11
"" from BleckCra Contract pics
Picture: (Contract pics)

a man's word
Aidan thanks. Good to hear from you. There's a kind of accuracy in your translation even although there isn't. Still, it's close and ants aren't.
There are essentially 3 titles for hills in Irish.
Sliabh/Slieve which is generic. Bheann/Ben/Bin/Pin a hill with a peak. Meall/Mweel/Maol/Meel a featureless and literally, bald hill, from Irish, unsurprisingly maol.
If you go to http://www.focloir.ie/ you will see how close it all is to the map.
I wish mv would pull up its raggedy socks on this. It's kind of cringey.
PS no club back yet at the Fair of Ormond?


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